The LOST Writers' Island

lisagwilkins · Site Administrator

Season 5 Discussion

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

I figured i'd have a little time and write this. Several thoughts in my head and needed to get them out.

The Issue of Leaving and Lying

One of the things that's worth mentioning here is that those in the O6 had no inttention to 'abandon' the people on the island. If I remember they were in the process of getting everyone off when circumstance separted them. The destruction of the freighter combined with moving of the island made it impossible. Jack even said to Kae, regarding Sawyer 'we'll com back for him'. And say what what you will about Jack, I hav no reason to believe he didn't mean that.

Sayid reiterated over and over and over again on the freighter with Desmond, that'we have to get ALL our people off the island'. I didn't hear him or anything else say "I have to get off' (well Jack said awhile back that's a whole nother point hehe) It was for the most the term 'we'.

The reason I bring up Sayid is because in re-watching the previous seasons, starting with Season 1, he has, by done the most work to get EVERYONE off the island. From fixing the trancievers to get signals out, to making radar for the raft among things. He had been for the most part, one of the more selfless of the survivors in that sense. He would constantly risk his life as well,, telling Jack he would sacrifice his life for group in the Season 3 finally. For the greater good. His concern is for the group as a whole, hardly ever for himself. He's been accused lately of, among with the others, wanting to get himself off the island and screw everyone else, and I find that horrendously disengenious considering all he's done in the past on the island

See when Locke came to all of them, it was 3 years later. That's alot of water under the bridge for all of them. Alot of things have happened since then. Sayid's contention was, if he had never left, he would've never had those wonderful 9 months with Nadia. And whose to begrudge him that? Cause it was based on a lie? Well Sawyer's 3 YEARS with Juliet in a nice house in Otherville was based on a fabrication too. Is onyone gonne begrudge either of them their happiness? I wouldn't. Sawyer hasn't forgotten the people that left, and the 6 haven't forgotten, they've just moved on as well, and that includes Sawyer.

And let's face the fact too, that once the skips in time stopped it appears those left on the island are enjoying a pretty good life for the most part. So why should there be hostility? If anything, with the exception of Daniel losing Charlott, the people on the island are living better than those on land. Maybe they never needed rescue. Obviously with the notable expection of reuniting Sun and Jin.

They only thing the 06 are guilty of is lying. Which might have been done for the best intentions, or assuage their guilt for survivnig in that sense. And who really could blame some fo them for wanting to forget. In my opinion the only one who deserves any animosity, who delivered a self-serving lie, was Kate. She's the only one I hold any real hostility for. Because her actions were selfish regarding Aaron. Depriving his grieving grandmother a chance to know him.

So to sum up, you can't abandon people if there's no intent to do in the first place. The only thing they are guilty of (which the notable expection of Kate) is lying and and moving on with their lives, which is exactly I should point out, the same thing Sawyer and Juliet have done as well.

Truth is, everyone, thos on, and off the island survived the best way they knew how. And if Sawyer shows more mercy toward the 06 then some want him to, it's because Sawyer gets it. Because of all people, he understands that. You do what you have to do.

I got more in my next post... cause i'm sort of bored today lol

-- Edited by fricksgurl75 at 20:41, 2009-03-11

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

Time Travel and the Inevitability of Fate

Charlottes recent death and Daniels's attempts to prevent it brought more thoughts in my head with regards to this. One of the themse over and over again with anything related to time travel is that you either can't change the fate of a someone, or when you do change it there are dire consquences. From movies like the Time Machine, The Dead Zone, The Butterfly Effect, the Terminator and others, there are ofen repercussionss.

The point is... your not supposed to interere, as Daniels said at one point. What happened will happen. The past is set. In order of the balance to stay the same it can't be altered. In The Butterfly Effect the father said 'you can't caange what people were, without changing who they are. Everything has an effect.

In The Time Machine, the lead, played by Guy Pierce, loses his fiance. She's shot by a robber. He invents a time machine to go back and he saves her from that only to have her die in another way. Everytime he does it, she still dies. Cause that's what meant to be. Like Daniel with Charlotte, telling her if she'd come back she'd die, didn't stop her from doing just that. She found her way. Cause it was fate. It was supposed to happen that way.

In an earlier episode, Locke is back in time and the Beechcraft was still in the trees. He attempted to climb up to it and fell, unable to do it. The reason for this being that he wasn't supposed to be the one bring it down. That was Boone's fate. It was designed for him. Fate wouldn't allow Locke to climb up, then or at the time it happened. There was nothing that could be done to prevent that from happeneing. Fate has design for you. Locke's Chalie Horse made certain that Boone went up instead.

It's like following the bullet so to speak. Jack hands Sawyer a gun at the end of Season 1. In Adrift, Sawyer and Micheal use the gun on the shark, using up all but one bullet. Ana-Lucia gets the gun, and chooses not to use the bullet on Sawyer. The reason that bullet never gets used is because it's designed for one person. It's gonna end up in Shannon. Sayid might have caught her if he hadn't tripped. But it was her fate unfortunatly. And nothing cna be done to prevent this. It was perordaned so to speak.

Charlie's death was the same thing, no matter what Desmond did, Chalie was gonna die. He could keep stopping it, but Fate is Fate. It'll find some way. Like in Final Destination, death will come and get you.

Danile of all people should undestand that you can't fix it. His warning did nothing. She would've ended up back there in some way. And if the time flips hadn't killed her, something else would. And in some painful was our attempts to prevent someone, actually cause it.

It's the nature of fate and time. There seems to be a plan to it. The deaths of these peole cause the people around them, to move in a particular direction that Fate as decreed for them. Without those deaths, events my not have happened. Worse things may have happened. Everything that happens, is happening for a reason.

Time can be such a conusing thing cause of the whole interference thing. Like with the nuclear warhead. Because the island was obviously still, it could be interfered with. The reinforced walls of the hatch and the radiation. The timer, was all because Daniel told them to bury it. Because that. already happened. Lost has always been about past and present co-existing, with the flashbacks and all.

In the general sceme of things, time is linear, you can move back and forth and tinkder with things, but you can't change the genera outcome.

The thing I think is that the time travel was a metaphor in a sense. It's essentially to show the characters that there are things you can't change. And things you can. The past is the past, you have to concentrate on what you do now.

There's a great line that sums this up from The Time Machine when one character says 'we all have own time machines. The ones that take us backwards are memories, and those that carry us forward, are dreams."

Our losses are what make us who are, and set us on whatever path we're supposed to go on, and those that lost people on that island had paths to take that they wouldn't take otherwise, that were inspired by theier loss. That's fate.

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

I feel like i'm the only one writing her but that's ok *snickers*

Just a few questions and observations on epiidode 5.9 "Namaste" And maybe a few others, just to get it off my chest so I can play around with the new promo pics hehee.. anyways..

Observation and or question: It's noted that Sun was not trasnported 30 years into the past like the others were. Wondering why this is. Is there something she has to do in the present that's important. Like some kind of mission. Her and Frank maybe?

This means that the people whoe are on the beach, including Sun, Frank, Ben, Locke, that spanish guy and the marshall chicck are separted by 30 years from eveyrone else. I'd like to know what that is, and more importantly, how the frak that happens.

Another obseravation: Kate, Jack and Hurley all landed in the same place, together. Were found together by Jin and therefore Sawyer and were brougth it. Sayid on the other hand, seemed to been deposited alone, in the jungle to be found and thoght of as a hostile. Why was he, of all people, alone? Does that have some special design or purpose? Quite possibly yes.

Another question, where is Daniel? What's he been doing for the past 3 years. Sawyer i'mplied he wasn't 'with' them anymore. That could have alot of meanings. Since he hasn't really been 'with it' since Charlotte's death.

Obsevation on Kate. When Sayid was brought in, Jack and Hurley both watched it with concern. Kate however looked sad for a moment and then turned away. Already adapting, alot like Sayid was able to. Unlike Jack and Hurley she can shove any feelings aside easily. Not sure what that means, it's just another reason why I have problems with her.

Final obseravtion on Sayid, and I touched on this before, but out of all of them he was the one who seemed to have adjusted the quickest in assessing to his situation. Sawyer didn't have to spell it out to him to much, he got it, and kept his motuh shut. So out of all of them, Sawyer knew Sayid would get it the best, even though he's probably confused at hell.

I don't have to touch on how cool Sawyer was, i'm sure our resident Sawyer lovers could go on and on about it.

Ok now.. observations on what i've seen in the promo. Speculation about the next episode type thing, without knowing spoilerss:

Sayid's tied to some kind of tree, sort of like Locke's dad was. That's interesting, that's their sacrificial thing there. Meaning someone is supposed to kill him. Or something like that. And he does get loose somehow. Some explosions some gunfire but that's the one siginifcant thing I took from it.

MY speculation on the next episode is based on the idea that Sayid want's to kill Ben before can grow up to the shit that he is. Out of vengeance, and some attempt to erase the harm Ben causes. Like I said, purely speculation but it's gonna go to his hear and if he's capable of killing a child. Even if that child turns out to be Ben.
It's probably gonna go to just far he'll go. To test to see if he has a line now. And iI know that it will have some correlation with his childhood memories as well. The ultimate scar he carries. Cause Lost when it does flashback memories, they always have some correlation to the present story. I see no reason why it would differ.

Anyways i'll find out if i'm right next week, but i'm looking forward to it anywayss biggrin

Starlight · Charlie's Angel

*pets shiny new thread*

Nice job Patti...very nice job! You have some great points. biggrin And just so you won't feel lonely...I'll put my two cents worth in.

I too want to know where Dan is...or maybe not. I'm worried for him and maybe I don't want to know what happened. wink But either way we'll find out and I have a feeling it will be before the finale.

I realize that Des, Pen, and little Charlie are out there floating around happily. And he deserves that...he really does, but happiness time is over and he needs to get his ass back to the island. biggrin Fingers crossed, that will be happening soon. Since he and Dan seem to have a connection, maybe we'll learn about them at the same time.

I was asking Lisa last night, is there a point to Hurley still carrying the guitar case around? I mean, I get that he had to have it on the plane cause it was the stand in for Charlie. But why make a point of showing him still with it? Is it just sentimental value or is there more to it? Please...please...oh please Lost gods, let there be more to it. :P

There has to be a reason that every interview Dom does when someone asks him about Lost, he talks about how much he would love to go back and talks about how he's talked to Damon about it.

Ok, so on to last night's ep. I was soooo happy to see Sawyer take charge and put Jack in his place. As well as Juliet being a bitch to Kate. Heh! They both got a heaping plateful of karma and I was happy. smile Oh and how adorable was Hurley and Sawyer's hug?

Ok, I'm sure there's more that i"m forgetting, but I'll come back and add later.

lisagwilkins · Site Administrator

Wow!! Lyndi and Patti!! Such good points and ideas.

Okay so here's my ideas as well.

I absolutely loved the way that Sawyer put Jack in his place. When Jack went to go visit Sawyer, he didn't ask one question about what happened, where is everybody, are you two okay, or anything remotely proactive. No, what he wanted to know was why was Sawyer reading a book.

But our Sawyer in typical fashion, explained it perfectly and did it in such a way that showed all that he was informing Jack and not explaining himself. The last thing I think any of us want to see is Sawyer being made to feel he has to get approval from Jack. There's been enough of that in the last 4 seasons and we certainly don't need to deal with that again.

And I loved when Sawyer said, "ain't that a relief?" And yes it was, because see, Jack is reactionary. He's trained to be that way. So many doctors are proactive, meaning that they are in a preventative mode. When we go to our doctor it's to prevent something most of the time. Jack is an emergency room doctor and a spinal surgeon, his whole reason for being is to react to whatever is put in front of him.

So in this situation, Jack would be called upon to be proactive and that's not what he wants to be. Jack can be counted on to determine the best course of action, based on whatever problem is put in front of him. He doesn't know how to strategize and come up with a solution to the abstract of what might happen. Anticipation and building toward an anticipated occurrence is not what Jack does or knows how to do.

Sawyer on the other hand has lived his whole life in a proactive mode, allbeit proactice in an illegal sense, he is still proactive. He has spent his life having to anticipate reactions to another reaction to another reaction. He has always had to stay at least one step ahead of everyone else to be able to pull off the cons he's done. So this is the perfect situation for him to be in. Which is always the exact reason why Jack is the wrong person to deal with this.

Jack also has a hard time with the cover he must be under in order to be the "workman" he's supposed to be. Remember the look on his face? He was personally offended that he would be thought of as a lowly workman. And to hear that Sawyer was "a good man." You could see the thought going through his mind and you could see the jealousy growing over his face.

So now to Sayid. I absolutely loved how he and Sawyer picked up on everything and took their cues from each other. It was perfect, it was adult and bot whiney baby talk like Jack would have subjected them to and then would have made the wrong decision and got them all in more trouble.

But no, Sayid played along and things ran smoothly. Now the next question is how smooth will they go in next week's show.

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

Nice Lisa, good observations about Jack, but the thing I noticed the most was that Jack said when Sawyer asked "Aren't you relieved?" He responded "Yes." Jack is very relieved to not be the one calling the shots. He never wanted that to beging with. Sawyer in this situation is the right man for the job cause it reauires cunning and thinking on your feet to handle these situations. And I do think Jack is relieved that for once, he's not responsible. It's like a weight off him now.

As for Sayid, like Sawyer he's trained to think quickly and react in situatiions just like this. He understands that these people have the advantage so in that situation he kept his mouth shut and only spoke when sopken to. Remember he's been a capive prisoner of war before. He knows to keep his head down and wait for the right opportunities.

Sawyer didn't talk down to him, he knew Sayid would catch on quickly. Sayid is pretending to be a hostile, cause that is his best chance at the moment. He and Sawyer are both very smart but more importanly, they are street-smart, and very very adaptable. Which is something that Jack lacks in frequently. And Sawyer knew that Sayid would bbehave himself for the time being.

Cause we know that having his hands tied is not a deterrent to to Sayid getting the upper hand. Remember the ankles of death was done when his hands were bound. He could've gotten away if he wanted to, he's biding his time, just like Sawyer is. Both of them smart enough to know the opportunity will present itself to them.

The only that concerns me with Sayid is when he saw littlle Ben, you could almost see his wheels turning on that. A thirst for vengeance is the only thing that could blind him now. But I have faith that they both will come out ok in the long run.

And Lyndi your right, Des needs to be back on that island and right soon. Gotta get em all back there. I got 2 out 3 now biggrin

Starlight · Charlie's Angel

Again great thoughts ladies!

And Lyndi your right, Des needs to be back on that island and right soon. Gotta get em all back there. I got 2 out 3 now biggrin

Well, you're doing better than me babe. I'm 0 for 3 right now. Ok, ok...2 for 5. wink

Still not very good odds. Come on Lost...get your ass in gear!! I need those numbers upped and soon. Please and thank you. biggrin

lisagwilkins · Site Administrator

I think the idea of shooting a kid, if it comes down to that, is going to be extremely traumatic for Sayid. But it will represent just exactly how far he is willing to go because I think in his mind, he's thinking that if he can correct the past, then he can correct the future and Nadia wouldn't be dead, and perhaps neither would Shannon, but from what Daniel and Mrs. Hawking have told us and Desmond, it doesn't appear that you can do that.

So that remains to be seen...

Now on to another aspect.

One of the things that I've been noticing for a long time is all the references to the idea of utopian society. The most glaring example of which happens to be that no one other than LaFleur seems to have a last name. Now it makes me wonder if James is singled out because he's an outsider or if he's supposed to be more important than the rest. I'm leaning toward the latter but that's my own personal preference.

Last names breed distinction and in a utopian society there would be no distinctions and everyone would be the same, hense no last names.

Another thing I've noticed is the choice of songs.

In LaFleur we had, Candida, an old Tony Orlando and Dawn song about goin' off to a place "where the air is fresh and clean. Candida, we can make it together, the further from here, girl, the better."

And then we have one of the most popular songs that all but signified the 70's. That would be Blue Oyster Cult's Ride Captain Ride. Ride, Captain, Ride is without a doubt very telling about the way of life in Dharma. "We're callin' everyone around the world to ride along, to another shore, where we can laugh our lives away and be free once more."

Both songs being two examples of the idea of Utopian Societies. I'll be interested to see what they come up for the remainder of the time in the groovy 70's. Of course being a child of the 70's myself, I have a particular interest.

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

That 70's stu ff is interesing not that i remember that decade that much but i could see where you got that from.

Before I get into a detailed analysis of this episode i'd like to mentin my favorie unintentional comedy moment of thew, provided bythe very naive Amy (played by Reiko Aylesorth, who played street kid Rebeca on One Life to Live many moons ago). She's Ethans mother as we know now and in endorsing the murder of a human being she tells them Ethan needs to be protected from these 'terrible' people.

This is the same Ethan by the way who kidnapped and drugged Claire, hung Charlie from a tree and killed Scott(or Steve i can't remember lol). I think Amy that you need to protect everyone from your precious Ethan. Maybe you didn't hold him enough as a child or something cause he turns out to be quite the nutcase later one.

And for the 'i'm so shallow' hottest moment award, Sayid and that bounty hunger. Dang Dayum and all those words. It was the steamiest thing i'd seen in awhile at least until she kicked him in the face. See personally I would've done him and then maybe arrested. Pardon me for thinking she's a little dumb in that sense. But hey that's just me hehehe.

But anyways. I loved "He's OUr You' for so many reasons but mostly because it was a great character episode which opened Sayid's very damaged psyche the way The Long Con did with Sawyer.

Opening with a father browbeating a son to kill a chicken to prove himself. Telling him to stay out there until he does it. The boys little brother however does it for him, luring the chicken with food and then breaking the animals neck and in return recieves praise from the shithead father. Being told essentially that this is what will make you a man.

For Sayid, the central theme is that this this is what he is. It's what he's always been good at. It's the skills that people like Ben want from him. The willingness to do what no one else will. Going back to Solitary, he gets praise and promotion for beating a man into submission. And when Ben needed a hired gun, he went and found Sayid. Knowing his grief and anger could be manipulate. He out of all of them had the skills Ben needed exploit.

He recognized this back in One of Them, and stored it away until the proper time. And it's funny but Ben and Sayid turned out to be alot alike in some ways. Both having a hard father to deal with. You could almost see his sympathy for Ben in those moments when his father was being abusive. He knew it shaped Ben, just like it shaped him.

In a weird sort of way you can see how much Sawyer has progessed cause of his inability to understand why Sayid won't help himself now. Why he insisits on being on his own. Sawyer has getten beyond some of his issues, Sayid is still mired in them. And as much as Sawyer wanted to help him he couldn't.

But of all people he's probably the one that understands the most that your perceptionn of yourself is built on others perceptions of you. If your told often enough something you believe it. From an early age Sayid was taught to be a certain. To albe to kill mercilessly makes you a man. And there will alway be someone like Ben who will reinforce it.

"The only thing I was ever good at' meaning killing, was alot like Sawyer, saying to Kate that a 'Tiger can't change his stripes'. It's not the right metaphor, cause the stripes on the outside. Truth is Sayid is good at alot of other things too, he's smart and mechiically inclined. And he's very capable of loving someone, ask Shannon and Nadia. But they're gone and all that's left is the hollowness, and the only thing you've got left. Your skills.

It's funny to me, and excuese if I meander a bit here, but these Dharma people claimed to be enlightened, yet they pratice an old form of law that involves crossing lines. Anyone who invades that, whatever their reason is locked up, and from the sound of it, killed. Dosen't sound very enlightened, sounds more like tribal warfare. Sayid recognizes this I think, the inherent hypocrisy. And maybe Sawyer does too.

Sawyer asks Sayid to play along like everyone else, and things will be fine. Sayid is not going to do this. He's not living anymore lies. He's done with it. He's got one mission to handle, and it's all that's left for him. Everything and everyone he ever loved is gone. The people that were his friends are nearly strangers now. So he's not going to be part of the Dharama Inititve.

Not that i'm condemning the others for joining for their own reasons. But Sayid is not going to do that. He's going to lure out little Ben and attempt to dispose of him before he becomes the diabolical little shit that he is now.

On the plane Sayid askes that woman if she workded for Ben, when she asked who Ben is Sayid tells her something to the effect of him being a manipulative man, guilty various crimes including genocide. When she asked him 'why would I work for a man like that?' His response. "I did.." Sayid knows he's almost as guilty as Ben.

Pointing the gun at the child that would become Ben, he in essence pointing it at himself too. Sayid can hauntingly see the future as clear as bell and knows what Bene will be. And maybe part of him wishes someone had done that him too. To kill him before he can any further harm.

Sayid's action at the rend remind me of something in the Dark Tower where Roland, a character with boatload of blood on his hands, tells Susannah 'sometiimes I hate myself.' Her response was 'It never stops you though does it?' The self-hatred just feeds on itself. And because for some reason he can't kill himself, he has to kill Ben instead, who is a reflection of himself when you think about it.

What happens to Sayid after this is anyone's guess but I'm willing to be he's hit the lowest point he can to, without actually digging now.

And am I the only one who thinks that little Ben isn't dead? Cause that just ain't how it works is it? I guess we'll see.