The LOST Writers' Island

Starlight · Charlie's Angel

The Desmond and Charlie Discussion Thread...Hee j/k ;)....The Men of Lost Discussion Thread

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

oooh a guys thread, it could get saucy in here that's for sure.

But Lyndi yes, the behavour and actions of Desmond highly contridicted the season before. I think there were alot of contradictions in Season 4. Almost like it was a totally different show, and whatever happened before didn't matter. They really made Charlie's death meaningless as a result.

I liked Season 4 in many places, The Economist, and The Constant were outstanding episodes. But that lack of consistency got to me. Like Do they even remember what Sayid said to Charlie and Ana about Ben and the Others. These were the same people he vowed to killl especially after Shannon's death. Why in the hell would he even believe Ben now, nonetheless work with him?

I have no doubt there was a con of some sort involved, using his grief and pain over Nadia's death to manipulate him at the worst possible time. A good con artist after all finds out what their mark wants and uses that. In this case revenge. And they get them to do what they want them to do, making the mark think it was their idea to begin with. . The little smile Ben had on his face as he walked away from Sayid in that alley sold it for me right there. Ben is a master manipulator after all, telling Sawyer in EMFH that 'you may be good, but we're better'.

See he already knew how far Sayid would go to avenge the death of someone he loved. Saw it first hand on the island. Knew how to work that to his advantage. I wouldn't put anything past that little fucker. And we don't know anything about Nadia's death outside of the fact that she's dead and that guy may have been involved in it. All we have is Ben's word, and he's a liar. And he's very good at it.

But you are so right about Desmonds amnesia about Charlie it seems, and the single minded purpose of getting to Penny without thought for what happened to Charlie and Claire. It seems out of character for him. It seemed like the writers had amnesia for a good part of this season. Forgetting important details and glossing over others.

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sawyersmine · Hollaback girl

I actually think the entirety of S4 was a big fuck you to all the shippers and Charlie and/or Claire fans.

When you write an entire season for the sole person of getting to the end, the end does not justify the mean. You all know how I feel about S4. By far the worst season Lost has ever had and there isnt a single episode Id watch again. Not to mention there was one I totally skipped out on. Im of the school of thought of why put yourself through misery if you dont have to.

Anyway, yeah I was saddened by how poorly Charlies death or the aftermath was handled. It was pretty much forgotten in the course of an episode. I mean to treat a seasoned character like that, honestly imo alot of the deaths were handled poorly. I am reminded of Danielle who was in the episode all of 4 minutes before they put bullets through her, lol. Or Eko who laughingly got dragged off by the smoke monster, lol, after surviving a polar bear attack and i mean if he had died in the hatch atleast it would have been a noble death.

But sorry, Im rambling. It definately didnt line up with Desmond vision however when Claire didnt get on that helicopter. Charlie died so she would live and looks like they might have killed her off too. Where is the loyalty to characters? Where is this trust we are supposed to have for the writers when everything is a big gotcha moment? That Aaron has a new mommy now? Killing off Jin after we are led to beleive hes going to meet his baby girl for the first time, or giving Sawyer 5 seconds of screen time all season, making Kate all the sudden forget that she was a tomboy and doesnt wear pink, or that the lie just didnt make any fucking sense. I mean does anyone really understand the reasoning for the lie at this point still? They lied to protect them? Who the people they think are dead? The people theyve abandoned and most have no desire to go back until the island has haunted them and forced them into madness? No lament, no memorial services, no mention of any of them until Kate is crying on her knees begging to Jack to forgive her for keepign a promise to Sawyer?

Hehe, yeah anyway. Sorry, when I let it go, it goes.

-- Edited by sawyersmine at 03:50, 2008-12-16

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

Go on Jaci, let it go we don't mind.

I won't go so far as to say i hate the season in toto cause there were parts and episodes i like, but it lacked continuity. And your right, it slapped just about every shipper in the face as well. Does Shannon even cross Sayid's mind, did Charlie cross Claire's and other than that promise, does Kate even miss Sawyer. who knows? But everyone who shipped those feel slighted by the lack of remembrance.

While i'm on that particular thought, i'm gonna say it. What about those poeple? All the ones that they lived with for months.. the ones that died, the ones that were left behind. Did they mean anything at all? it's the lack of continuity that pisses me off the most.

I'm of the contention, and have been of the contention for awhile that they lied for themselves more than anything. To tell t hemselves that they weren't there. Like Kate said to pill-popping Jack 'i've spent the last 3 years trying to forget what happened the day we left.' How's that working out for you Kate? It's guilt is what it is, they got away, and they can tell the lie to themselves until they believe but escape themselves either.

I mentioned earlier that making someone like Sayid work for Ben pisses me off, cause he's alot better than that. it's like he's back to doing everyones dirty work again. Instead of the strong character he used to be, he's no better than Ben's hired gun.

The reason I use this example is because in Seasons 2 and 3 Sayid's main objective was to find and pretty much wipe out any Others. Especially Ben. He blamed them for Shannon, thinking Ana was terrozed into that, and he was partially right. Danielle warned him Ben would lie, and for a long time, so why the hell would he believe anything Ben said at that point. And they haven't answered why Widmore would target Nadia specifically. Makes no sense.

Things like that are annoying. Highly so. Sometimes makes me really wonder, once again if the writers themselves have amnesia like Desmond. Wouldn't surprise in the slightest.

But getting back to the seasons, i didn't find Season 4 as bad as season 2. Shannon's murder, the Locke and Jack show, the character assaninations of Charlie and Sawyer, Sana sex you name it. That one pissed me off.

-- Edited by fricksgurl75 at 06:14, 2008-12-16

Starlight · Charlie's Angel

I totally agree with all the inconsistances Jaci. They screwed the pooch big time with that. Although I'll have to disagree on Season 4 being the worst. It's a toss up for me between 2 and 4. I really think 2 blew chunks as well. That being said...I think The Constant and The Economist stood out very strongly in Season 4. The Constant being my second fav ep ever. I don't own the DVDs to Season 2...I hate it that much. However, I'm fairly certain I'll end up buying Season 4,s o I guess that says something. LOL

Anyway, Season 4 wasn't the only one full of inconsitancies. Charlie's character was ripped apart in Season 2. They took an endearing character from Season 1 and made him an annoying little pest. I couldn't wait for him to die at one point. The Charlie I originally loved was gone. But then at the last hour, they pulled Greatest Hits out of their asses and there he was. My Charlie...the one I loved from Season 1. But of course it was too late to save him at that point.

Besides trashing Charlie, there were also a ton of inconsistencies throughtout the seasons. The first two that come to mind are Charlie saying in Season 1 that he can't swim, but by Season 3 not only had we seen a flashback of him learning how to swim, but now he was a freaking Olympic worthy swimmer swimming to his death. A convenient oversight as a means to an end. Just like you mentioned earlier Jaci. It's all about that means to an end.

The other big inconsistancy that eats at me as far as the guys go is them leading us to believe that Sawyer was from Knoxville then all of a sudden we're told oh no, he's from Alabama.

I swear, the fans keep up with the details better than the writers, staff, etc.

lisagwilkins · Site Administrator

I put a tremendous amount of blame on Greg Nations. On the season 4 DVD's there's a documentary with Damon and Carlton and him and they are just sloppin' sugar all over that idiot, talkin' about how wonderful he is and how he knows everything about every episode. WRONG!!

He's the script coordinator for the show and he's supposed to be the one in charge of the continuity. And if that's the case then why have there been so many botched story lines and so many things just dropped. The most glaring of which is Sawyer's "new sherrif" speech. What happened to that and why was it so easy for Jack to get the guns away from him just by sending Kate with him to find them. If Kate would have had any sense at all she would have told Jack that she wasn't about to tell him where the guns were, even when she did find out.

But god forbid Kate should go against Jack over Sawyer...that would just be too much.

So instead we get weak story line, pointless plot points that go in no direction at all and are used as filler until something noteworthy comes along. And I'm sure Lyndi will agree with me that the disservice to Claire's character has been horrendous in all honesty since the story began.

I can't even call to mind all the dropped story lines and all the inconsistencies the show has offered up to the viewing public, and to be quite honest, if that's Greg Nations' job then I could do it better!

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

Inconsistences, the shows full of them. I think they wrote in the first season and then changed them for storyline purposes. Like the whole Knoxville, Tennesee/Mobile, Alabama thing. Not to mention I thought in the original script, Sawyer's mothers name was Laura, not Mary. Although Mary I suppose was meant for the biblical connotation. It's those small details however that people notice, especially when you rewartch the first season there's alot of them.

Charlie's sudden ability to swim when he said he didn't, Shannon saying she was 20 in RBA when she was actually closer to 22 (this has to do with Jack's meeting with Desmond after her father's accident and Desmond's time in the hatch). Sayid telling Danielle that he he believed he got Nadia killed, when in the TGG it was revealed that he knew she was alive and had been looking for her. Never mind Claire's mother screaming at Christian in TFTR when Par Avion revealed she was still in a coma shortly before Claire left. * Lynid just corrected me on that one though, that was Lindsey my bad *That's just a few i've noticed.

But your right Lisa, the script supervisor is responible for finding and correcting glaring errors like this. One's that studious people notice. Especially on a show like this.

I'm not sure if the "new sheriff in town' thing consitutes an insonsistancy as much it's a dropped storyline type thing.But then again I don't think Sawyer took the guns to be in charge as much as it was to prove a point. That like ever eloquent Ana told Sayid, 'Jack and Locke were too worried about Locke and Jack'. And cause Jack pissed him off. As is with Sawyer, who I love to death, I don't think he did that for completlty noble purpsoes in that sense.

I think it's interesting to note that faith was lost in both Jack and Locke the very next season. And the division of the camp fell along some interesting lines when they had to choose between them. Sayid for example, stayed on Jack's side in spite of misgiving about the way Jack handles things, but the alternative was Locke and Sayid has been at odds with Locke from the first season, starting with Boone's death and the revelations about the trancievers.

Claire, Sawyer and Hurley went with Locke. Why? I mean given a chocie which one would you believe? I don't think i'd pick either but with Sawyer I think he saw the best chance of survival on the island. Or maybe because on island he was someone, and on land, he was nothing better than a con-artist. Although i'm sure there are plenty of people who have opinions this.

-- Edited by fricksgurl75 at 02:10, 2008-12-22

sawyersmine · Hollaback girl

I think Sawyer took the guns a. to prove a point, b. to get back at Jackass for being such a dick, c. to keep them under his close watch, and d. make sure people had to come to him to get them, because they already had one ringer in the camp (Ethan) and the security hadnt been very good since then. Especially given how easy it was for Sawyer to get them. Although the Sawyerfangirl in me says he PAWNED them good. And Im proud of him. :D

But back to picking sides, Jack or Locke, I think Claire and Hurley went with Locke because of Charlie and Desmonds message. I really found it strange that Desmond himself didnt go with Locke, because he was right there when Charlie died to give him that message, and it would have had the most emotional impact for him, but yet he went. Another inconsistency that bothered me.

I wasnt surprised Sawyer went with Locke actually. But I think like Sawyer said, he did it for himself, he wasnt picking teams, he just didnt want to be in the line of fire and a part of him probably did think he had nothing to go back for. Not meaning Clem. But his life was in shambles before he crashed on the island and I think Sawyer knew that he had a better chance of being a good person if he stayed. Kindof like rehab. The scary part isnt the rehab itself but getting back out into the real world and continuing to maintain.

If Jack wanted to stay, I think Claire and Hurley and Sawyer would have stayed with him too. So imo it wasnt as much about taking sides as it was political.

They didnt go into depth as to why Sayid wanted to go back, but I would assume he wanted to go back to find Nadia and start again. Its unfortunate that for a good chunk of S4 they spent so much time on these gotcha moments, misleading and dissapointing, and so little on filling in these huge gaping inconsistent holes.

If I can dig it up, Ill put the list up here of inconsistencies. Someone put it up on FB once and I was surprised at how long it was. But it really is dissapointing when we the fans can remember things that the paid professional cant. I admit I havent recalled all that you guys have, but to someone who skims over the details more frequently than you guys there have been some that raise a red flag even for me, like Desmonds vision of Claire and Aaron, or Sawyer being from Knoxville, not Jasper, Alabama. And even if by some fluke, say for instance Desmond saw someone else holding Aaron and assumed Claire was there, or Sawyer moved around as a kid and started out in Jasper, but ended up in Tennessee, the least they could do is explain that to us.

But I told myself I didnt want to spend any more time griping about s4. I mean its not worth it and Im hoping they will make it up to us in S5. From what Ive read, I think they will. Which is what I really care about.

-- Edited by sawyersmine at 16:58, 2008-12-22

Starlight · Charlie's Angel

I agree Jaci, that the picking sides wasn't about whose side they were picking but what that side was standing for. I think Claire and Hurley chose Locke not because it was Locke but because it was the side that was staying and they saw Charlie's message as a warning not to go to the boat.

It so upset me that Desmond chose Jack's side. Wasn't he listening to the message Charlie gave him that he relayed to others? What happened to the Desmond that frantically swam back to shore so he could tell everyone Charlie's message? That Desmond would have gone with Claire and Hurley and honored Charlie's memory. But at some point between the time he came back and the time they chose sides, he became a new Desmond only concerned with getting off the island and back to Penny, who he knew the boat didn't belong to. It made no sense!

It's almost as if when Hurley brushed Desmond aside and went to tell Claire about Charlie, that Desmond just said screw the whole thing and forgot all about Charlie, Claire, and Aaron. And in the meantime, the fans of all four got screwed.

I think Sawyer chose Locke's side for the very reason he told Kate. He was trying to protect himself. He knew something bad was going to happen and he wanted as far away from it as possible. Only problem was, it managed to come and find him and the others anyway.

I will admit I've seen a few good spoilers for next season. But I'm not getting my hopes up. I'll remain with the wait and see attitude for now.

fricksgurl75 · The light on the dark side of me..

That whole thing with Desmond, getting back to Penny and saying the hell with all of it, didn't make him look good in that sense and I blame that one othe wrirters.

But I think he badly wanted off that island after having been there for like 3 years or so. Something like thatt. So I can hardly blame him for the side he took. But I think if they'd been consistent he would've looked after Claire alot better instead stepping on Charlie's memory by not doing it. Now granted we don't see every moment and he might've asked about Clciare, but it didn't look good.

Sayid I think wolld've done anything to get off that island. He'd always been one of the ones working on the ways to do that from the beginning, hence his conflict with Locke. But moreso after Shannon died, he just wanted to get the hell away, and try to find Nadia. Which he did, unfortunatly for her. She was his goal and savlation at that point, his chance at a normal ife. He actually sold out a friend to attempt to get to her. To fine that elusive peace he needs. That he lost with Shannon and eventually lost with Nadia.

He's like alot of the others, not realizing the peace you need comes from within not from someone else. They can help you, but you have to help yourself more than anything. Hence the old wheel keeps a turnin, that wheel of Karma that keeps hitting you in the face. Fail history and of course repeat it.

Sawyer seems to be the only one whose getting better. Staying on the island is the best thing for him overall I think. And maybe just maybe, letting go of Kate as well. I'm not sure she was helping him anymore. He's grown more without her around, messing with and confusing him. She was good for him at first but not anymore I think. And this is coming from a former Skater.